My interview with Malcolm Jamal Warner, known from the Cosby Show. He talks candidly about his role in the most famous tv show, music, politics and his dreadlocks. A world conversation.
MALCOLM-JAMAL WARNER
Hi Malcolm. Thanks for this interview. I know you have a busy schedule so I really appreciate you taking the time to talk.
Most everyone knows you from the Cosby Show but can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did you grow up and what kind of kid were you?
Well, I was born in New Jersey and lived there until I was five. My parents split up and my mother and I moved to her hometown, Los Angeles. My father moved to his hometown, Chicago. As a child, I would travel back and forth from Los Angeles to Chicago to spend the summers with my father and grandfather. When I got the role of Theo at 13, I moved back to NY because Mr. Cosby wanted to shoot the show there.
This was great for us as kids because we got to grow up in a real New York environment instead of growing up as Hollywood stars. New York gave us a realistic perspective, something I don't think we would have gotten if we had grown up in LA with a role on the number one television show in the world! So LA, Chicago and New York all played a huge part in my upbringing. I was a pretty sweet kid I have to say. I never really got into any mischief because I didn't want to get in trouble with my parents. They did a great job protecting my inner light and nurturing me as a young artist.
You are a poet with a gift for wordplay. When did this ever start? Do you remember your first poem?
(Laughing) I started writing when I was a little kid. When I was 7, I told my mother that I was either going to be a famous actor or a famous basketball player or a famous poet. Now that I look back, I realize that my life today is the result of all those ideas that I came up with back then.
Although I don’t remember my first poem, I do remember one I wrote as an adult, one that sparked my active participation in the revival of the underground poetry scene. The year was 1993. The venue was The Juke Joint, one of only two places in LA where you could go to hear poetry. The first time I went there, every woman had a poem that trashed a man. It seemed like the night was an opportunity to use poetry to express why men were no good. I felt like we needed someone to stand up for the men. So I came back the next week with a poem called “My Wife.” It discussed the relationship from the man’s point of view. It began:
“ “ What I can't understand is your plan
to leave me be
after years of trying to change your man
NOW you claim you don't understand me?
Well, I don't understand you, but that doesn't mean we're through
Imagine if I flipped the script and pulled that same bullshit on you… ”
(Laughing) My writing has come on leaps and bounds since that poem, but it spoke to the male perspective and feelings that we don't talk about enough and that women don't hear enough about. The poem also put some of the blame on the woman because I think it's wrong to put all the blame on the man when it comes to miscommunication between the two.
The poem came from such an honest and universal place that everyone present understood it. The men loved it of course, but even the women were nodding their heads like, “Hmm, he’s got an argument.” That was the moment I realized I had found another way to touch souls. In my own way. My second CD is called “Confessions of a Confused Romantic.” “Love & Other Social Issues” is a more developed expression of the vulnerability of the man in a relationship. And again, these are things we don’t talk about, women hardly hear about them.
When did you start playing bass guitar?
I started playing in late '97. I was working for UPN on a show called "Malcolm & Eddie." I went from working for NBC and learning under Mr. Cosby, recruiting everyone to be more intentional about combating the stereotypical black images, to working for UPN, a network that was using a marketing strategy for the black demographic that relied heavily on those same stereotypical images.
When I realized I was going to have to do this for a while I decided I needed a hobby. Something that had nothing to do with acting or directing. Acting had always been my hobby. Even when it became my career, it was still my favorite thing to do. Directing started as a hobby and became a career. I thought if I started playing an instrument it wouldn't be a career. I said I would never start a band or record a CD. Of course, I started Miles Long after a year and started playing the LA club circuit. With two CDs, tours and playing jazz festivals, music has become that other career I thought I could avoid!
Why bass guitar?
I always say that the bass guitar chose me. I have always been drawn to the background when it comes to music. I got my first record player when I was 7. The first record I took out of my mother's collection was Graham Central Station. I grew up listening to Larry Graham, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Marcus Miller (through the music of Miles Davis and Luther Vandross), Verdine White, Louis Johnson, Bootsey, MeShell Ndege'Ocello and many other bass players that were used in hip hop music. They all had a huge influence on the way I listen to music. I also thought that playing the bass guitar would be easy. Foolishly, I thought I could be a bass player without having to learn strings and music theory. I thought I could just play the basic notes. The moment I started playing upright bass I realized that I would have to learn the language of music and all the other things I thought I could avoid to become the bass player I wanted to be. Inevitable.
And how did you actually get started with acting?
My mother was always looking for activities for me to do besides coming home from school, doing homework, and hanging out on the streets with friends. One season it was basketball. Another was an acting class where I immediately focused on acting. I loved it! Our first play was “Alice, Is That You?” which is a bit based on The Wiz. I had the role of The Tin Man. I loved the call back when I came back on stage and bowed while people applauded me! For a kid, that is nirvana! Besides that part, I also enjoyed the playground that the stage provided. So that’s how it started.
The Cosby Show is a classic. What is the most important thing you took away from that period?
There were so many things. Work ethic was a big one. It got to the point where we were only working four days a week because Mr. Cosby was spending his Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights in Atlantic City, Las Vegas, Tahoe or somewhere doing his comedy shows. This guy had the number one television show in the world and he was still working almost every weekend. It was impressive, to say the least. I learned from that that you really have to work hard even when you are popular so that when the popularity drops off a little bit, as any long-term entertainer will, you don't have to make desperate career choices. I'm pretty critical of the kind of work I take because integrity is very important to me.
This is probably a tough question to answer, but do you have a favorite episode and why?
I actually have a few favorites, but my favorite has to be the first episode where Theo tells Cliff that he doesn't want to be a doctor like him or a lawyer like Claire.
He wants to be a normal person and if they were normal people he wouldn’t love them one bit less so they have to love him for who he is. He finishes his speech and the audience immediately applauds his touching honesty. Cliff, who immediately sees the smarts of his 13-year-old son, responds: Theo… that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life! No wonder you keep getting F’s! You’re afraid to study because you think your brain’s going to explode and leak out your ear.” Cliff Huxtable confronts the kid about his stupid reasons for not studying and gets angry with him for not trying. He ends with this classic: “You’re going to study because I said so. I put you in this world and I can take you out.” It's the moment where as a parent all reason just disappears. I love that moment because this would be the moment in any other sitcom where the music would come on after that kid's speech, the father would have hugged the son, apologized, told him he was right and he loved him and it would be the end of the show.
Cliff hugged Theo and told him he loved him, but not before he put him in his place. That moment indicated that this show was different from the others. In the Huxtable world, children did not get to impose their will on adults.
A while back I was watching the episode where Theo has an earring. The scene on the bed where Cliff tries to get a look at Theo's ear had me laughing. I was sitting in the living room by myself shaking with laughter. I called up Mr. Cosby and said to him, "Hey man, we were funny." He said, "You're absolutely right!"
While I am grateful for the blessing of being a part of such a successful show, it was a little difficult to fully appreciate and appreciate the show in the midst of all the cheering. Now that I have finally distanced myself enough to the point where I no longer criticize myself while watching it, I can enjoy the episodes like a normal viewer.
I can watch it and laugh and finally appreciate what others have gotten out of it. I used to think Theo was so lame but now I totally understand his charm. My friends find it funny that I reference the Cosby Show so much these days. This may sound crazy but I have recently realized how important the Cliff and Claire relationship has always been to my own relationships. I just love women. But the way I love MY wife is the Cliff Huxtable way. That is still one of the pleasures I get from watching the show to this day – how much love there was in that household.
One of your last films I saw was called I Believe Fools Gold. How was the set and the filming?
Five months in Australia on someone else’s dime. Need I say more? It was just fantastic. We arrived at the beginning of summer and it was like a paid holiday. Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson were really cool. A big budget movie coupled with great lead actors is always fun!
What's next for you in acting? Can we expect to see you in another film soon?
Right now I am more into music. I have been busy promoting my second CD, “Love & Other Social Issues.” We are about to start work on the third CD. Music is my passion and the other career that fulfills my creativity in between acting. “Fools Gold” was my last studio film and is now out on DVD (as is the independent film “The List” with Wayne Brady). I also have my solo show called, “Love & Other Social Issues” that premiered on the West Coast. We have had some really great reviews – the kind you can’t buy. That was hard to believe, right now we are working hard to get it Off Broadway. I am very interested in transitioning into more film work. TV has been good to me so I will never turn my back on it, but as an artist I am always looking to push the boundaries. I am very particular about the work I choose so believe me, if I come across an interesting TV project I will not turn it down.
And of course you're a poet. How do you write? I mean, do you do it on the set, when something in the studio inspires you, or do you really have to be all alone, far away from your work?
Inspiration comes when it comes. While I'm trying to fall asleep, while I'm driving, while I'm in the shower, while I'm shaving, and sometimes while I'm waiting on set.
My first Miles Long songs were poems that I set to the music that we were making. Towards the end of recording was when I actually started writing music. It took me back to the period where I was writing rhymes because I wanted to be a rapper. So the challenge was to write to the music, not just write rhymes. The key was to still write in a poetic way. I still have a lot of pieces that are just better as poems. They don't work when they're set to music. On the other hand, I've written other pieces that can't function as poems because they're written according to the structure of a song or music.
Your music is beautiful. You are a good bass player and I thought it was funny that you say on your myspace page that people are really surprised that you are good. Why do you think that is the case?
Because there is a stigma when an actor makes the transition to music. Nowadays, it is easier for a singer or rapper to be accepted in the film or TV world. But I think people don't realize that there was a time when you had to be able to act, sing and dance to be considered a complete artist.
So it should come as no surprise that actors are also singers or at least musically inclined. However, if I were a singer, I would probably have a harder time being accepted because it is as if a singer or an actor, no matter how great they are, has a harder time getting acceptance from the public if they are known as an actor first. But because I am a poet and a musician first without a record label telling me what kind of music to make, I have the opportunity to be as honest and passionate as I want.
It allows me to have a freshness in the music. That’s something that people crave. I always say that my music is for people like me. We grew up with hip hop but it doesn’t appeal to us anymore because we’re not that demographic anymore. We want something with more sophistication – we want to bob our heads to a beat but we have words with depth and – let’s be honest – sexy words that stimulate our imagination.
My music is jazz funk – not too jazzy to upset the hipness, but jazzy enough to stimulate the senses. It sounds good on CD but it’s great to hear live. There’s another thing, people still think I’m “Theo.” They’re always pleasantly surprised to find that Theo is nowhere to be found. Let’s put it this way, my live show is totally anti-Theo. I like that because our live shows give the audience, despite their love for Theo, the chance to meet and love Malcolm (by the way, he’s of legal age and more charming).
Is it difficult to choose between music and acting?
I don’t know. I don’t choose. I’m always involved in music, even when I’m acting. I don’t turn down acting work because of music. It’s not necessary. It’s never happened to me. Music has been very good to me because it allows me to express myself in ways that I can’t express myself as an actor or a director, but I have no plans to turn my back on acting. It will always be a passion of mine and also a viable and necessary way to express myself.
You said musicians are always busy. What would be your ideal lineup for Miles Long if everyone was available and when/where would be the ideal place to perform?
Well, both of my CDs were independent productions and they were also independently distributed so I don't have a record company or tour budget.
When I have to perform away from home I use local musicians. I play in New York, DC, Atlanta and Chicago so much that I have bands there – guys who have done my show a few times and already know my material, the flow, etc. In other cities I can assign someone ahead of time to act as a sort of musical director and put the rest of the band together. I arrive, we rehearse twice and we play. It’s fun because it gives me a chance to play with different musicians which in turn informs my performance. An ideal scenario would be to do a tour – say a 6 week tour – with the same musicians so that after a few weeks of rehearsals and shows you can put the band together. In a band situation, it’s not just playing the notes – anyone you hire can do that. It’s about the feel, the vibe, and knowing your band members well enough that you can almost say you’re spiritually in tune with them. That’s when you can create a certain level of magic. As I am in the current situation I can’t do that yet but I know I will be able to soon…of course with the cool, huge and super comfortable tour buses.
We have at least one favorite author in common, Wayne Dyer. How did you like “Your Ultimate Calling” and what do you think your Ultimate Calling is?
I found it powerful. I was reading it while also re-reading both “A New Earth” and “Conversations With God (book 3)”, and I found its spiritual message consistent with what I was already reading.
I chose Dr. Dyer's book because I was at a point where I needed inspiration - some days I'm not so clear. I'm still processing it because I don't know yet what my ultimate calling is.
It is clear that it is about teaching but I do not know exactly how to do that. In a simple way I teach purely by the way I live my life. I certainly teach through my music and poems. There was a period where I stopped speaking in schools and to young people because I was frustrated that my messages of self-love, self-confidence, self-responsibility, responsibility and positivity were seen as cliché because these kids would rather listen to Tupac, Biggie or Snoop.
It was frustrating because these kids were blindly believing the big lies that these rap artists were selling. I was also fighting my own hypocrisy because I was listening to the same hip-hop. But I knew better and I knew hip-hop before it was called 'gangsta rap' so I wasn't as receptive to the message.
When I discovered poetry I found another way to get my message across in a way that young people could relate to. I found a way to show that being positive is not cliché. You can be positive and still be cool. You can be smart and nice and still be cool.
I’ll be honest, there are still times when I get frustrated because I don’t know if anyone is listening or even giving any value to what I’m saying, but I always remember what a teacher once said to me: “As a teacher, you’ll never know how many people you’re really going to touch, but you have to keep teaching because there are people out there who are receiving what you’re teaching and who need it.” That’s what drives me. After all, my life is too blessed to keep all that I’m learning to myself. I find it powerful when Dr. Dyer says that whatever you want for yourself, you should want more for someone else.
When did you start with locomotives and why?
In April of 1997. It was a period of fasting through the Master Cleanse method and because I didn't want to be in a social environment I spent a lot of time alone. During this period of loneliness I made that decision. So it was a spiritual decision.
For some, locs are a style. For others, a spiritual sensation. So for you, it was a spiritual decision?
Well, to be honest, both. Well, it's more of a statement than a style. I made a commitment when I decided to get my hair tressed.
It's a style that many actors either hold back or have to cut their hair to get roles. I was very familiar with the stigma attached to dread locs so I knew that having locs would make it less threatening. I hated seeing Isiah Washington have to cut his hair so considering Malcolm and Eddie had already been picked up for a second season I knew it would be easy for me to have locs. I already had a job. I didn't think UPN would have a problem with my locs. My hair had never been brought up as a problem.
As for the spiritual side of it all, I had already studied my mother’s experience with her locs. I teased her when she first started twisting her hair because I didn’t think she would seriously get it loc’d. I teased her that she was joining a fad because a lot of people were twisting but real loc’s are a different story. However, when her hair started growing out I will literally see the transformation in her.
As you know, you can have a lot of days where your hair is just plain awful when you are in the locs process but I saw how she even endured those days with a wrap, scarf or hat. She showed me that even on those bad days you have to do your best and just keep going with the process. It is all about how you feel about yourself and how you look. I saw that extra bit of pride she exuded when she walked and her confidence grew. It was amazing to see. That was my deeper spiritual connection and also a sense of who I am.
How long did you have your locs? Why did you cut them off?
I always said I would wear my locs for 10 years. It’s been 10 ½. I was ready. My manager and agents had been suggesting I cut them off for years. They felt my hair was holding me back from getting work. I always knew there was a possibility I would have to cut my locs for a role. Say I had to play a 60s activist, but the idea of having to cut my hair just to go to auditions was laughable.
Did they do me a disservice? I don’t know, but I did 5 feature films and 3 television shows with my locs on my head. Could I have worked more? Who knows? But I certainly didn’t let it interfere with the most important personal journey I needed to take in my life. Everyone I’ve talked to with locs advised me not to cut them off until I was ready. They did and they regretted it. Goapele was the only one I knew who waited until she was ready and she didn’t regret it. She was one of the people who convinced me to go at my own pace.
How much time passed between thinking about it and actually cutting them off?
When I reached 9 ½ years I knew I was reaching 10 years. So